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I
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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me gatri the
Cascade towards a return of reaction in
Latin America appears to have been
halted albeit by a whisker in Peru the
former dictator's daughter Kiko fujimori
pulled 49% and more but narly lost the
presidency to mainstream conservative
Pedro Pablo Kosinski
but with the results so narrow how long
before fujimori supporters begin to
challenge the result and mobilize the
street power undoubtedly at her disposal
and what will the Army do and what is it
about dictatorship which seems to be
coming back into fashion who better to
talk us through than Peruvian analyst
and super journalist Isaac bigo Isaac
thanks for coming on the Sputnik three
questions there will she accept the
result what will the Army do and what
what is it about her brand of right-wing
politics that appears to be coming back
into fashion well the first question is
at the moment the difference is only
40,000
votes the count is now n is is almost
almost 100% it's very few votes to be
counted
so Kinski is going to be Proclaim
president there is a possibility that
kimori would call for a recount of the
vote but at the moment she has not
accepted the results some people from
her party are
mobilizing people in the street is
claiming that this is a fra however the
left and the union said that fujimori
always make frauds in 2000 he make fraud
this was our father his the Father the
father make fraud and he was completely
the showed that he was was a fraud so he
has to resign from the presidency and in
this time there have been a lot of
accusation that when in many Village
they changed the boat so at the moment
we don't know if she's going to accept
or not your second question was about
the Army at the moment the Army has not
been doing nothing but we don't know
what they are going to do I think at the
moment the Army said whatever the
national election decide we will support
but we don't know because this
government soala is used to be a
military I don't know if he's going to
accept if ujimori won for a narrow vote
and with fra at the moment the election
is in favor of kusinski I don't think
there nothing going to
change now thanks to your material that
I have read it seems that Fuji Mor
though a figure of the right had Mass
support amongst the very poorest the
Shante Town dwellers and the the poor
masses how does that come to pass this
is very interesting because in Lima The
Shanti towns that surround the center of
the capital used to be the the basis of
the left but now they vote IM V vote for
fujimori and the people that vote for
Kinski was in the middle class and right
wing and upper class suburbs or areas so
why they are popular because first she
give money to everybody she give money
she gave a lot of little s second
because during his during fujimori
government in the 19 1990 to 2000
fujimori made a lot of er roads
and medical post and the most important
scene fujimori defeat shining P which he
was accused as a terrorist threat no now
K fujimon said as my father defeated
terrorist I'm going to defeat crime and
crime is terrible the problem is that
she can defeat Street crime but she's
going to put a lot of criminals in power
because um many of her most
closest supporters have been accused of
being linked with the narc traffic and
in a lot of corruption scandals so but
people that the most poor people believe
that she can defeat crime no another
argument is that the other candidate
kusinski is a gringo he a US citizen
he's has been a banker he's a member of
all the banking institution and he's a
very rich man so she's Japanese yeah she
is
Peruvian with a
Japanese
grandparents
uh she she was born in Peru no and and
so the supporters of fimor they include
indigenous yeah
um no she had most of the supportive
amongst ER yes she has indigenous people
but most of her support are the poor
people in The Shanti
towns they and poor people in some rural
areas but she is not a candid of the
indigenous population seems they don't
have a candidate there's one from
Japanese EXT one Japanese and one yes
very interesting that in many areas like
puno which is the AAR region by the
tiaka lake there was a lot of n v like
10 12 15% of the votes they didn't
believe in both any of the candidates
the interesting thing is the the South
which is the more indigenous part of
Peru which is where the ketos and Mar
lived most of the South supported
kuchinski against fujimori because the
left said the worst enemy is is fujimori
no so the left back the mainstream
conservative the I will tell you
something the only reason why kuchinski
won is because Al the vote of the
left I there is something very
interesting in the Peruan election in
most of the elections the main the most
the the main meetings the main
demonstration the main rallies are in
supporting one candidate in Peru in the
first round and the second round the
main demonstration was against K
fujimori there were more than 100,000
people in the street before she was
before the first round and also before
the second round against fujimori in
every important city even in London we
did a demonstration
so so people from the left wanted to
stopi this would be a bit like uh the
left in
France uh putting their way in the final
ballot behind uh sarosi against Leen
Leen also
representing uh an increasing
disturbingly large number of the very
poorest people most marginal people in
France uh except for the the immigrants
of course who are her
scapegoats uh but some of the same if
you like brown shirt politics storite
politics anti- capitalist anti-me but
actually being composed of capitalists
and
criminals there are some similarity
between Leen and fujimori because it's K
fujimori is the daughter of Alberto
fujimori who used to be a dictator
dictator and is the only former
president that has been extralite and is
in jail and you know in in France you
have Leen daughter and Leen father but
there is a difference in France Leen has
never been in power and all the
right-wing parties said we don't want to
deal with lean while in Peru fujimori
had been in power 16 years ago he
control a lot of the judges and have a
lot of influence in the Electoral court
and in the previous election in 2011
kuchinski openly supported Kiko vuim
Mori saying that she was she was going
to do a marvelous government and honest
government and her father defeated
terrorism and hyperinflation so in
reality it's not like Shak and Leen
because kusinski is more conservative
was supported fuimo in the past no now
how does this fit into the bigger l
American picture we have a return of the
Old Guard in Brazil we have the leftist
government in Venezuela in big trouble
we had a defeat for the peronists in
Argentina uh we have it seems a creeping
return to reaction how does this fit
into that picture well at the same time
that the we have this problem in Peru we
have the situation in Brazil but is in
Brazil we have a new government which is
is deeply unpopular two of its Minister
has been resigned because of accusation
of corruption there are more other
minister that are going to resign is so
perhaps the right wind cou the T in
Brazil is not going to work very very
much ER in the case of Venezuela yes
it's more likely to be a referendum but
even in the case that the Maduro lost
but because I think the referendum is
going to be at the end of the year or
beginning of the the other year we are
going to have a a chavista government
because the deputy president is going to
replace him so there is a is a return of
the reaction but I will tell you
something in the case of Peru there is
also the growth of the left the left has
been completely smash since 1990 when
fujimori took power he destroyed the
left now is the first time that the left
achieved more than 20% of the votes in
Peru in fact was about 22
25% so the left is growing in Peru
another time is the second they have the
second group in the
Parliament and so we and I see that you
ask me about this the politic of the
streets fujimi is not winning the street
is the opposite there's a lot of anti
Fuji moras in the street and this move
mass movement is going to grow so I
think that in Peru the left have a
position of growing and growing and
growing what about the ultra left you
mentioned them earlier the uh cero
luminosa The Shining path maest
guerillas commandante Gonzalo and all of
that are they just history
now well this is one of the most shame
shameful guerillas that I ever no
because in Ireland or in B country or
in guillas then become very popular
parties no they have been elected in
Salvador and in
Nicaragua but in Peru Shin impa the only
slogan that they have now is amnesty for
fujimori for the paramilitary for all
the people that kill people because we
also want to have charman Gonzalo free
so they they don't have any kind of
support they are completely isolated
they don't come to the mass
demonstration fujimori they have a small
party which tried to
become legalized was not legalized which
so they are very very isolated they not
in this picture at all no not at all
they they don't have arms they don't
have they don't have a mass movement
they don't have weapons they only have
few militants going here and there
that's all know they they they are gone
well we we must have you back to keep
our watching brief on Latin American
Events thanks for joining us on the spck
coming up next it's Lord Martin Ree a
lord a baron and an astrophysicist on
the joys to come of a world of robots
stay
tuned welcome back to Sputnik the TV
series humans depicts a world where the
middle class class at least have
artificial intelligence in every home
and not just an intelligent dishwasher
either they have the full monty of
glamorous robotic opars who cook your
dinner and bring up your children and
like Hal in Stanley Kubrick's 2001 A
Space Odyssey it all goes wrong when the
robot's artificial intelligence begins
to develop a mind of its own well we are
honored to have on board the Sputnik the
world's most eminent cosmologist and as
physicist Lord Martin Reese former
president of the Royal Society and the
astronomer Royal it is an honor
Professor you Astound me I've listened
to a lot of your talks your
preoccupations are so well astronomic
compared to my own and I wish we had an
hour to talk to you but let's focus on
artificial intelligence first is this
just a kind of development of all mod
cons a dishwasher a vacuum cleaner a
washing machine a robot or is it a
Quantum
Leap first let me say I worry as much
about everyday matters as anyone else
despite my Cosmic preoccupations but I
think there are exciting things
happening in what's called generalized
machine learning we used to robots
they've taken over lot of factory work
etc um but what's happening now is that
they can Digest lot of information and
they can actually learn how to do things
without being taught in detail Let me
Give an example um 20 years ago um a
machine beat Casper off the world chess
champion that was a great achievement
but the machine was programmed by expert
chess player just a couple of months ago
another machine run by a company here in
London called Deep Mind beat the world
champion at the game of Go a Chinese
game which is thought to be even deeper
and more difficult than chess the
difference was that that computer wasn't
told the rules in detail it learned by
watching millions of games and playing
against itself and it made moves that
amazed even expert players so it's now
possible by just brute crunching of huge
amounts of data for machines to learn
without being taught and the same thing
has been used in machine translation um
old type translation was very good
whereas now if you give machines a
billion not a million pages of stuff to
read they use EU documents the machines
never get bored they just read that
stuff and when they've read a billion
Pages they can translate and this is a
new technique which is possible because
computer so powerful and I think what
this means is that the robots we're
talking about the ones you had your
introduction they will exist um but
what's going to be more interesting is
that machines will take over more
intellectual work I think they will take
over the work of lawyers um doctors both
for Diagnostics and surgery the jobs
they won't take over incidentally are
jobs like um uh yours and mine well I
don't know I don't M but I meant things
like being a plumber and being a
gardener they'd be harder to automate
and uh I think obviously the economic
consequence of all this as I'm sure
you'd agree is that we've got to make
sure that the uh money earned by the
robots doesn't go to a small Elite but
is redistributed so as to provide
dignified jobs as carers gardeners in
public parks custodians teachers
assistants Etc uh who will be given
dignified and secure Employments using
the resources made available by the
robots well that's a very important
Point all of those were but Henry Ford
told his workers the United Auto Workers
of America uh more than half a century
ago I could replace you all and uh I
could make my cars with robots and the
union answered in that case who will buy
the cars if no one has work and wages
then the the product of these uh uh
robots cannot be uh purchased but given
that we live in the kind of world we do
live in where the elite are
increasingly uh consolidating their
wealth few people own more than half of
the wealth in the whole world it's more
likely isn't it that the workers are
going to be laid off by by the new
intelligence artificial intelligence
that's coming on board yeah well even
just to add on that the Obama
Administration when they first made
their uh Research into this they did
come out with a finding that 80% of
workers who earn less than $20 an hour
would be able to be replace um well that
may happen but as I say that is
something where uh there's a need for
redistribution to ensure they're well
supported nonetheless um John mayard KES
in the 19 30s talked about a world where
no one worked more than 15 hours a week
and that hasn't come um but if it comes
then we should uh perhaps welcome it
some will have shuddered I'm not a lder
in any sense some will have shuddered
though at the Amazing Story you just
told about the computer learning itself
how to play things this is the beginning
is it not of the Quantum Leap to from
from rubbish in rubbish out as they used
to say about computers to something
different um it is I mean how it's clear
the direction of travel is going to be
towards computers with a bigger range of
human capabilities uh how long that will
take we don't know of course although
they can surpass humans in many respects
robots are very primitive compared to us
for instance uh although they can play
chess a championship level you can't
make a robot that can move the pieces on
a real chessboard as adeptly as a
5-year-old kid can so there's a long way
to go before they can do all the things
we can but of course nonetheless many
people and I know some of the people in
this field feel it's not premature to
have guidelines for these developments
just as we need them for biotech to
ensure that uh they don't go Rogue as it
were because other there clearly are
these scenarios in movies and science
fiction which are looking not quite so
far away from reality these days well I
saw 2001 A Space Odyssey in the 197
seemed very long and I watched
go the great computer that was powering
the ship began to question the uh
decisions being made by the humans and
eventually of course disaster uh ensued
uh is that a possibility that a computer
in that sense can develop a mind of its
own make moral judgments well it's a
possibility and of course uh uh the
guidelines suggest that if we are going
to develop these computers we've got to
somehow ensure that they have the right
sort of moral sense and that's hard
maybe they can learn it by looking at us
but of course the morals are G will
depend on who they look at that
won't depend who they were studying yes
but but the other point is that um even
if you try and give them uh uh
guidelines even the robot you have in
your kitchen uh then they don't have
common sense to give a simple examples
much quoted uh you have your robot
that's supposed to keep the fridge uh
full up Etc and you come home and
there's no meat uh then it'll put the
cat in the oven you see because it won't
realize that that's a different uh
concept and we don't do that sort of
thing so you've got to realize that all
these things that we've grown up to
accept as uh obvious uh need to be
programmed into a computer or it has to
learn by watching millions of people and
that's going to be the problem if the
computers become too autonomous but I
think uh there is one context and you
mentioned Hal in 2001 when where robots
ought to be given free reign and that is
in space because uh uh although man
space flight is a great achievement the
uh uh the Russian cosmonauts and the
Americans who landed on the moon I think
the Practical case for sending people
into space is getting weaker all the
time as the robots get better and I
think humans may go as an adventure just
like they climb Everest Etc but I think
the future of space lies with uh um huge
robotic Fabricators making things in
space um and uh robots exploring the
solar system they can do this uh as well
as humans and Far Far cheaper you said
in one of your magnificent talks that uh
that we we've got six billion years to
go before 6 and a half I think before
The Sun Burns Out which will be the end
of uh of the earth uh but you also made
the point which reverberates in my mind
that
the people or or or rather the life that
will be on earth 6 and a half billion
years from now will be as different from
us as we are from bacteria this
fascinates me this idea what will it be
in your in your well we don't know I
think that's important and this is
perhaps one perspective that astronomers
bring because most people apart from uh
creationists and people in Kansas and
the Muslim world uh know that we're the
outcome of four billion years of
evolution
but most people somehow think we are the
culmination we are the end of we believe
in evolution but we we say that God must
have designed it well we need we need to
believe that but I think many people who
are happy with naturalistic Evolution
still think that we humans are the end
they don't realize that as you just
implied we're not even the halfway stage
and that there will be future Evolution
um of uh postum entities here on Earth
and far beyond and the key question
really is whether they will be a organic
with the kind of wet Hardware we have
inside our skulls or whether they'll be
electronic I think the latter I think we
may be quite near already the um
capacity uh which can be uh uh hardwar
by the sort of wet stuff in our skulls
and therefore I think it will be the
machines that take over and they will
have as you said billions of years ahead
of them and that incidentally has
another implication which is that if uh
we find evidence for extraterrestrial
life intelligent life out in space which
some people are looking for then what we
may find is far more likely to be a uh
robotic and electronic than organic
because uh if we imagine that the
evolution on some distant planet tracked
what happened on Earth then you get four
billion years of evolution and then
intelligence emerged and Technology but
then the machines take over and they
have billions of years ahead so if there
is intelligence out there it's probably
already in
machines told you he was astounding I
want to talk to you about the parallel
universe ideas but we don't have time to
do it uh on this occasion Lord Reese
professor and astronomer Royal thank you
very much for joining us
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thank and now it's your turn to tell us
what you think through the portals of
social media what's ratling G so on the
super intriguing topic of artificial
intelligence whether it's a savior or a
threat to humanity Wayne Mack for
Palestine says they've said for years
that new tech will free up our leisure
time yet it doesn't and Ricardo Picasso
says don't forget that robot means slave
what if those powerful intelligent
machines found out well that's because
the the sociology doesn't match the
technology the technology is Advanced
the sociology is well less than Advanced
well that's all the tweet for today
which alas means that's all we've got
time for but you can stay in touch with
us through Twitter and rtor Sputnik on
Facebook Sputnik on Russia today it's
goodbye from me gatri and from me George
Gallow it's been marvelous
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